並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%90%89%E7%B1%B3%E5%B8%B6%E4%BD%A0%E8%81%BD/%E9%9B%B2%E9%9C%A7%E8%BE%B2%E5%A0%B4%E7%82%BA%E4%BB%80%E9%BA%BC%E8%A6%81%E6%8E%A8%E5%87%BA%E9%BA%BB%E8%BE%A3%E8%87%AD%E8%B1%86%E8%85%90-hpJDR6GO2si/